tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post968507604534527164..comments2024-03-19T00:26:30.753-07:00Comments on The Jesus Blog: Bart Ehrman, Me, and Jesus' Literacy--Chris KeithAnthony Le Donnehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01282792648606976883noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-22869642870995569152014-04-22T04:59:57.929-07:002014-04-22T04:59:57.929-07:00Pasquino, I don't discuss Hillel much in this ...Pasquino, I don't discuss Hillel much in this book given the late date of the evidence for Hillel and the fact that, well, the book is about Jesus and not Hillel. But I do discuss him briefly in a footnote in my more recent one. If the later rabbinic discussions of Hillel are correct, then he represents someone from outside the scribal class who was able to gain a scribal-literate education, much like Akiva. This was no small feat in my mind, as the author of Sirach, e.g., considers this type of social move virtually impossible (Sir 38-39). It's here that the parallel with Jesus would break down, since we have no claims for Jesus managing to attain a scribal-literate education despite being from the manual-labor class in the first-century texts; we have only claims that put him in different classes (Mark 6.3//Luke 4.16-30). Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-36584621497287208132014-04-19T13:38:40.018-07:002014-04-19T13:38:40.018-07:00Chris I haven't read your book as yet. I just ...Chris I haven't read your book as yet. I just wondered where you would fit Rabbi Hillel into the Jesus literacy question?Pasquinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01937895048362590023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-72999440321747741032013-07-21T02:39:19.973-07:002013-07-21T02:39:19.973-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-30510160045514870852013-07-19T22:41:29.877-07:002013-07-19T22:41:29.877-07:00Bilbo, I think that your suggestion that social ou...Bilbo, I think that your suggestion that social outliers should be considered is an interesting point. But your point is ruined by packaging it in hostility. This seems to be a repeated theme in your posts. Unfortunate - I thought we had a budding rapport a while back.<br /><br />The bottom line is that you've made a couple wrong assumptions about Prof. Keith's book in this thread. Unless you're willing to read the book (now reasonably priced), I think we've heard enough from you on this topic.<br /><br />I hope that future comments from you will demonstrate a bit more civility.<br /><br />-anthonyAnthony Le Donnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01282792648606976883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-19211233818280292972013-07-19T19:02:48.656-07:002013-07-19T19:02:48.656-07:00You're right, Chris, I haven't read your b...You're right, Chris, I haven't read your book. If your argument does not include the consideration of child prodigies, then yes, I am asserting that I am in a position to tell you how to write your own argument. Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-55383049829363575442013-07-19T12:29:18.224-07:002013-07-19T12:29:18.224-07:00I think it is obvious that Bilbo has not read the ...I think it is obvious that Bilbo has not read the book and is therefore speaking from ignorance, ironically asserting that he is in the position to tell me how to write my own argument.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-37366566549520426032013-07-19T10:06:40.923-07:002013-07-19T10:06:40.923-07:00Biblo, no. Chris need make no such argument.
I am...Biblo, no. Chris need make no such argument.<br /><br />I am reading Chris' book as we speak. But the arguments against Jesus' literacy are very strong. Few 1st century Palestinian Jews could read, and those who could were predominantly or exclusively in the upper strata of society. Moreover, assuming that we place Jesus' early life in Nazareth, that means he grew up in a cultural and religious backwater, where fewer Jews could read than in, say, Jerusalem. You yourself acknowledge it: Jesus' literacy was so improbable that we'd expect even his kin and neighbors to express shock if Jesus could read scripture.<br /><br />When you brought up the question of prodigies, I pointed out that even Mozart needed access to teachers and a piano ... and as you pointed out, even Capablanca needed access to a chessboard and a father who knew how to play. Again, it is improbable that Jesus had ready access to a book, or for that matter, to text of any kind, let alone a teacher.<br /><br />This is all we can discuss: what is probable, what is likely, what is plausible and what is impossible. Can I rule out that Joseph had a few books in his house? Can I rule out that Nazareth had a literate citizen or two willing to teach Jesus some aleph bet? While Jesus would have been expected from an early age to work and help support his family, can I rule out the possibility that his parents found a way to let him spend a hour or two in pursuit of literacy? Of course not. It's not impossible. It's just highly unlikely, not plausible, IMHO.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08976868079076669453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-87621077788684065802013-07-18T20:07:08.450-07:002013-07-18T20:07:08.450-07:00Bilbo, have you read Prof. Keith's monograph &...Bilbo, have you read Prof. Keith's monograph "Jesus' Literacy"?<br /><br />-anthonyAnthony Le Donnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01282792648606976883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-13951404366249269542013-07-18T16:56:51.251-07:002013-07-18T16:56:51.251-07:00Hi Larry,
Then besides the argument that Jesus d...Hi Larry, <br /><br />Then besides the argument that Jesus did not receive an elementary education, Chris needs to make the additional argument that Jesus would have had no exposure to literature of any kind. <br /><br />As far as how <i>much</i> exposure a child prodigy needs to their specific skill set, I think that's a matter of debate. For example, the chess master Capablanca was said at the age of four to have watched for the first time only a partial game that his father was playing, when he commented after one of his father's moves, "That was a bad move." <br /><br />I suggest that we know far less about the human mind than we think we do, and one should approach questions such as whether Jesus was literate with much more humility than Chris and other historians exhibit. Perhaps Jesus was illiterate. Perhaps not. We have Luke's testimony that he wasn't. We can reject Luke's testimony, but I suggest that we do so with much more trepidation. After all, he was closer to his sources than we were. Both Mary and the people in Nazareth express shock at Jesus's apparent literacy, which is what we should expect them to exhibit, given its improbability. So in that sense at least, the stories fit their context. Now is it improbable that Jesus was able to learn to read on his own? Given his exceptional character, it shouldn't surprise us if he turned out to be prodigious. Are we sure that he had no exposure at all to any literature? On what basis do we make that claim? Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-9987649549311127052013-07-17T21:43:05.423-07:002013-07-17T21:43:05.423-07:00Bilbo, it is difficult to imagine how Jesus could ...Bilbo, it is difficult to imagine how Jesus could have learned to read in a backwater village like Nazareth where no one (or nearly no one) could read. Prodigies are children who are quick learners, but even the best student needs a teacher. By "teacher", I don't necessarily mean someone in the profession of teaching. I mean someone who himself or herself knows how to read well enough (and who is inclined) to teach at least the basics to others. <br /><br />But the problem you're facing goes beyond the question of instruction. Consider that in order to learn to read, people need things to read. A child in 21st century America hopefully grows up in an environment full of text. Jesus grew up in a place and at a time where encounter with the written word was considerably less frequent than it is now. It is likely that Jesus' house did not contain a single book. What, exactly, do you figure Jesus taught himself to read?<br /><br />Look at a prodigy like Mozart, who was composing and performing in public by age 5. He grew up in a house full of music, with a father who was a skilled musician. Mozart did not learn to play piano in the absence of a piano, any more than Jesus could have taught himself to read without having access to a book.<br /><br />In Nazareth, learning to read would be something like learning to weave today. Imagine that your child was a weaving prodigy -- how would he or she learn to weave without a loom, in a household (a neighborhood, a city) where very few people know how to weave? No ... Chris is right. Even if Jesus was a prodigy, he would have needed an elementary education to realize his prodigy abilities.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08976868079076669453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-70488343588088693182013-07-17T16:58:23.581-07:002013-07-17T16:58:23.581-07:00You're pushing the argument that Jesus was ill...You're pushing the argument that Jesus was illiterate because he didn't have an elementary education. In order for this argument to work, you need to show that the only way people can learn to read is by having an elementary education. But the existence of child prodigies who have learned to read without the aid of an elementary education falsifies your premise. So now, in order to show that Jesus was illiterate, you need to demonstrate that he was not a child prodigy. Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-38006867681631833622013-07-17T04:32:50.522-07:002013-07-17T04:32:50.522-07:00Actually, I don't need that because I'm no...Actually, I don't need that because I'm not pushing the child prodigy argument; you are. And if you want to go down that road, have right at it. Make sure to let us know what studies you turn up on the literate education of first-century Palestinian child prodigies.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-49298955070511345072013-07-16T16:36:56.381-07:002013-07-16T16:36:56.381-07:00What you need is evidence that not even a child pr...What you need is evidence that not even a child prodigy can learn to read without an "elementary education." Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06231440026059820600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-6986193115230347912013-07-16T11:07:19.709-07:002013-07-16T11:07:19.709-07:00In case the reference isn't clear: http://www...In case the reference isn't clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0j2dVuhr6s. Go to about 1:00.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-76827742555279581692013-07-16T10:54:17.966-07:002013-07-16T10:54:17.966-07:00Thank you for narrating the process, Peter. And we...Thank you for narrating the process, Peter. And we prefer jive talking to straight talking on this blog.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-88395862343904465202013-07-16T07:17:36.796-07:002013-07-16T07:17:36.796-07:00The comment thread is how it is partly because of ...The comment thread is how it is partly because of the moderation policy. Hence post makes error, fourteen commenters comment on error (not seeing any other comments), then comments get approved and appear. Then poster confesses to the error (well, he calls it a lack of precision, but this is a blog, so we don't expect straight talking) in the original post. Peter M. Headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379103292621457026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-39470166751189517972013-07-16T05:50:53.753-07:002013-07-16T05:50:53.753-07:00Alas, I must recant! You did indeed cite that very...Alas, I must recant! You did indeed cite that very mss in our earlier email exchange! Mea culpa, friend.Adam Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00565603128601715575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-40399723823225271442013-07-16T05:41:13.003-07:002013-07-16T05:41:13.003-07:00You did not point that out, I am sure, nor would I...You did not point that out, I am sure, nor would I consider that late of a mss quite as indicative of earlier Hebrew scribal practices. Still, there are a few earlier exceptions to the norm, hence my original hedging of "do not as a rule use scriptio continua" (no totalitarianism here!). Our pagination is different apparently for Tov's TC, but I'm looking at Ch. 4.2.a ("Writing Practices: Word Division"), where he gives arguments for and against an _original_ use of scriptio continua for biblical texts, concluding against.Adam Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00565603128601715575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-37156453876058518042013-07-16T02:54:46.614-07:002013-07-16T02:54:46.614-07:00And to add to your perplexed state, I think from o...And to add to your perplexed state, I think from our original conversation that I then also reminded you that the Genesis scroll in Cambridge seems to have a lack of spacing.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-74721886553091285592013-07-15T21:43:00.025-07:002013-07-15T21:43:00.025-07:00Sorry, p.196 of Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bi...Sorry, p.196 of Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible. I noted the spot in Scribal Practices, too, but he actually uses the phrase on p.196 of TC.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-76436888145891626482013-07-15T15:24:08.132-07:002013-07-15T15:24:08.132-07:00Page 196 of which, Chris? He has a good summary on...Page 196 of which, Chris? He has a good summary on 123ff of _Scribal Practices and Approaches Reflected in the Texts Found in the Judean Desert_. It is true that on p. 145 he does only say "The overwhelming majority of the Judean Desert texts use one of two systems for separating words in Hebrew and Aramaic..." so you have perhaps some leeway there. (He has this free online, btw: http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/books/scribal-practices1.publ.books.pdf)Adam Beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00565603128601715575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-79726065859358561342013-07-15T13:52:34.891-07:002013-07-15T13:52:34.891-07:00Yes, Pete, you're right that it's good to ...Yes, Pete, you're right that it's good to get these things right. See below.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-46471932200039052242013-07-15T12:37:21.306-07:002013-07-15T12:37:21.306-07:00Adam, woe unto me for having perplexed you. See m...Adam, woe unto me for having perplexed you. See mea culpa below. But, also tell me, is it not the case that on p.196 Tov states clearly that some Judean desert texts attest scriptio continua?Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-34441464326383533262013-07-15T12:22:00.514-07:002013-07-15T12:22:00.514-07:00Jack, thanks for this. I do discuss Craffert and ...Jack, thanks for this. I do discuss Craffert and Botha in the monograph. I'm pretty unconvinced, as interesting as the article is. Botha's argument (the relevant section of the essay is written by Botha) is that Luke 4 describes a cultural event where Jesus "performed" the text but didn't really read it. In other words, he could "read" the text but only in a sense that didn't really mean read. I don't think this is the case. Luke clearly thinks Jesus did read the text, as his reference to Jesus finding a particular reading indicates. Both does draw our attention to some important issues about the perception of literacy more generally, though.<br /><br />The irony of this whole comment thread is that I have a lengthy footnote in the manuscript I just submitted that criticizes scholars who argue that no one AT ALL could read texts and that all texts were in scriptio continua. In response, I cite all the readers' aids like space division, ekthesis, etc., that appear in some ancient manuscripts (for this point, NT). My only point above is that these reader's aids were intended for people who already held familiarity with the manuscripts.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-86522746757286450082013-07-15T11:44:28.140-07:002013-07-15T11:44:28.140-07:00Chris,
Your correspondents on this topic may find...Chris,<br /><br />Your correspondents on this topic may find this article by Craffert and PJJ Botha fascinating to read. <br /><br />“WHY JESUS COULD WALK ON THE SEA BUT HE <br />COULD NOT READ AND WRITE: Reflections on Historicity and Interpretation in Historical Jesus Research.” <i>Neotestamentica</i> 39.1 (2005) 5-35.<br />https://neotestamentica.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/391abotha-craffert.pdf<br /><br />I haven't read your book yet, but I suspect you probably cited this in it.<br /><br />-Jack<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com