tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post1587436254918943550..comments2024-03-19T00:26:30.753-07:00Comments on The Jesus Blog: Was Jesus a Peasant?—Chris KeithAnthony Le Donnehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01282792648606976883noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-26911308669149954162013-04-05T08:22:47.774-07:002013-04-05T08:22:47.774-07:00"Would he not have been challenged in part fo..."Would he not have been challenged in part for crossing class boundaries, presuming to speak with the authority of an educated man though (ex hypothesi) he wasn't one?"<br /><br />Perhaps so. But then at Nazareth Jesus is challenged for flaunting his knowledge (honor grab?) among his peasant neighbors (Luke 4:16-30). W/o the class boundary issue it was likely the idea of limited good that catalyzed the attempted social sanctioning of Jesus there. In any event, I agree with you, Eric, that the boundaries between social classes in the NT are more porous than Malina's initial articulation of the model imagined - Crook's article clearly shows this.<br /><br />There are many elements of the topic that need to be considered - many questions. The point I'm trying to make is that the way Jesus is portrayed as relating to others in the text can be brought into the discussion of his social status, and so move it beyond simple adjudication over the translation/meaning of a Greek word (<i>tektōn</i>) and whether or not Jesus had access to ancestral lands.<br /><br />Pax!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-29335166107900817412013-04-04T18:35:03.052-07:002013-04-04T18:35:03.052-07:00Would he not have been challenged in part for cros...Would he not have been challenged in part for crossing class boundaries, presuming to speak with the authority of an educated man though (ex hypothesi) he wasn't one? Or because his popularity was perceived by his social superiors as a rivalry or threat to their honor and authority? Seems like Neyrey made some points about debating "down" the social ladder. <br /><br />In any case, if we're going to gauge Jesus' socio-economic status in light of who challenged/were challenged by him, we ought to be more precise about the status of those opponents. Even poor scribes had more honor/standing than most people on account of their literacy (if I'm remembering Chris correctly). And Pharisees were not necessarily high on the social ladder. I think the study you are looking for is Crossan's big Historical Jesus book. <br /><br />Eric <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-91453754278764036452013-04-04T17:06:53.480-07:002013-04-04T17:06:53.480-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.bradhosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12035296518202883604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-63476845787806456732013-04-04T15:46:32.919-07:002013-04-04T15:46:32.919-07:00Dang it. Not "well-off," but you know wh...Dang it. Not "well-off," but you know what I mean.Joshua Paul Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03970879028978093230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-28222037178005776082013-04-04T14:02:37.343-07:002013-04-04T14:02:37.343-07:00I think 1.62 is a reference to the disciples, not ...I think 1.62 is a reference to the disciples, not Jesus himself. I can't remember.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-27567151319727707172013-04-04T13:58:30.139-07:002013-04-04T13:58:30.139-07:00I said that it was "in" Origen not that ...I said that it was "in" Origen not that Origen said it. You're right, though. It is in Origen's quotation of Celsus that the association with woodworking occurs. Origen elsewhere acknowledges that Jesus was not educated and illiterate in Cels. 1.29, 62 and Comm. Matt. 10.17.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-46077805742140396362013-04-04T13:27:26.198-07:002013-04-04T13:27:26.198-07:00Origen claims that none of the Gospels refer to Je...Origen claims that none of the Gospels refer to Jesus as a carpenter (Against Celsus 6.36) but quotes Celsus as asserting it so. <br /><br />As it happens, Ron Huggins is compiling a page on the subject which, even though incomplete, is helpful for the discussion: http://ronaldvhuggins.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/was-jesus-carpenter-tekton-and-if-so_30.html Joshua Mannhttp://www.sakeoftruth.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-29650457111342382242013-04-04T12:59:21.551-07:002013-04-04T12:59:21.551-07:00Is it not perfectly feasible that Jesus was both r...Is it not perfectly feasible that Jesus was both relatively well-off as a builder and an inheritor of family land (if in fact Jesus did have a known father) AND identified himself firmly with the peasants (i.e. he divested himself of socio-economic status)? This is a common tradition among spiritual greats—St. Francis was the son of a wealthy textile merchant, Mohandas Gandhi was once a dapper young lawyer, and (according to tradition) Siddharta Gautama was an ivory-tower prince. <br /><br />Oakman has done some good work in this arena. See <i>Jesus and the Peasants</i> (Cascade: 2008), the title of which sounds like it would make a killer name for a band.Joshua Paul Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03970879028978093230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-87270858925807563842013-04-04T12:48:45.932-07:002013-04-04T12:48:45.932-07:00The "carpenter" meaning for tekton (whic...The "carpenter" meaning for tekton (which can mean other things) comes from traditions in Inf. Gos. Thom, Justin Martyr, and Origen that identify Jesus and Joseph as woodworkers. To my knowledge, no early Christian tradition identifies Jesus as a smith or something of the like. I have to disagree with you, Ralph, on the education issue. I think this is very far from clear in the sources. In fact, the opposite is clearer in texts like John 7.15 and Acts 4.13.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-92063754925697147252013-04-04T12:47:21.430-07:002013-04-04T12:47:21.430-07:00Although Zeb Crook’s article Honor, Shame and Soci...Although Zeb Crook’s article <i>Honor, Shame and Social Status Revisited</i> points out it was not always the case that challenge-riposte occurred among social equals, one could presume Jesus was not a peasant since he was often publicly challenged by folks who were likely not peasants as well (like Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.). According to Malina, such challenges themselves would be seen as shameful bullying.<br /><br />It would be an interesting study to examine the extent to which Jesus himself is portrayed as functioning with a peasant mentality, say, in terms of the idea of limited good a la George Foster. Surely someone has done this already?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-85818014480277181702013-04-04T12:46:38.444-07:002013-04-04T12:46:38.444-07:00I think so, Jim, and I think you're right abou...I think so, Jim, and I think you're right about the carry-over. That's one reason I don't use the term.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-55483952542239838112013-04-04T12:46:00.157-07:002013-04-04T12:46:00.157-07:00Brice, there have been some attempts at an article...Brice, there have been some attempts at an article like this, but not in a long time. I agree that it would be beneficial.Chris Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007521996155910288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-91398665538544562222013-04-04T12:25:48.342-07:002013-04-04T12:25:48.342-07:00Looking at the first century sources -- Gospels, E...Looking at the first century sources -- Gospels, Epistles, Josephus, etc. -- it's clear that Jesus and his brother, James, were educated men within the Jewish context. This pretty much mandates a parent with a socioeconomic status above that of a farmer or laborer. It's not hard to further extrapolate that Jesus, at least, was in the "family business" from adolescence until he began his ministry more than a decade later. Carpenter? No way to be sure, but we might stipulate that he and his father were craftsmen of a sort.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-12372257028946742272013-04-04T12:03:24.010-07:002013-04-04T12:03:24.010-07:00Is there an economic category for a guy who can fe...Is there an economic category for a guy who can feed 5k+ ppl without having to whip out an AmEx card to pay a caterer, yet voluntarily has no place to lay his head?arvoplhttp://facebook.com/arvoplnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-20259203201284781252013-04-04T10:01:45.066-07:002013-04-04T10:01:45.066-07:00How sharply defined is "peasant" in this...How sharply defined is "peasant" in this setting? It seems to me to be a term carried over from European fedualism that lacks precision in Hellenistic Palestine. Is this a substitute for the question, How economically well off was Jesus?Jim Shoeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10131212492565422366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8637125351921336084.post-81698976152857733352013-04-04T09:20:28.085-07:002013-04-04T09:20:28.085-07:00In P.Mich. 5 291, a first cent. CE papyrus documen...In P.Mich. 5 291, a first cent. CE papyrus documenting the sale of a vacant lot, the sons of Papontos the carpenter ([τέκτ]ωνος) own the west lots. Extremely poor people did not own lots of land. There were also a number of Greco-Roman "associations" just for carpenters (which required payment of dues). So, at least in some regions, carpenters were on the upper-end of the social class scale, as you say. I would like to see a study devoted to the role of carpenters and there status within society (drawing on various sources such as papyri, inscriptions, literary references, etc.) in the first century. This is an article just waiting to be written. And I think the result of such as study would go some way in answering your question.Brice C. Joneshttp://bricecjones.weebly.com/blognoreply@blogger.com